Myth-busting GenAI Creative

[00:00:00] Doug Berger: Welcome to the latest installment of Brand of Brothers. I'm Doug.

[00:00:03] Johnny Diggz: And I'm Johnny. Today we're busting some myths about creatives using generative AI.

[00:00:08] Doug Berger: All right, let's get to it

 

[00:00:19] Johnny Diggz: And we're back. So myth busting gen AI for creatives. How do we do that? What is it? Why? What's going on, Doug?

[00:00:28] Doug Berger: So I think that what we should do is kind of... So we've talked a lot about the Higgins Berger scale of gen AI ethics.

[00:00:38] Johnny Diggz: We've done whole episodes on it,

[00:00:40] Doug Berger: yeah. We've done three. Yeah. We'll eventually get to the other two components.

[00:00:44] Johnny Diggz: Transparency.

[00:00:46] Doug Berger: Yeah.

[00:00:46] Doug Berger: Wait, uh, data usage and privacy.

[00:00:49] Doug Berger: Uh-huh.

[00:00:50] Johnny Diggz: Um- Uh, i- intent

[00:00:55] Doug Berger: Sure

[00:00:56] Johnny Diggz: Uh...

[00:00:58] Doug Berger: There's potential for harm.

[00:00:59] Johnny Diggz: Potential for harm, and then there's one other-

[00:01:01] Doug Berger: Displacement

[00:01:02] Johnny Diggz: Displacement. Oh, displacing other, other humans. Yeah.

[00:01:04] Doug Berger: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I think that displacement is a super relevant thing for us to talk about today, but I don't wanna get too mired into that, so much as I wanna talk about the perceptions versus reality when it comes to using gen AI.

[00:01:22] Doug Berger: Um, so first off, we don't talk about, uh, economics in, um, in our ethics scale, so I definitely wanna talk about who should be using gen AI, well, why it's permissible for certain groups to be using gen AI. And then I'd also like to k- kinda dive into the myths versus realities of environmental impact of gen AI, especially since we don't talk about it in eth- in our ethics, uh- Yeah

[00:01:55] Doug Berger: platform. And there's a, a, an important reason why we don't discuss it, and it's because that's one component that's a bit polarizing, and it's a bit nebulous in that right now the data is a little bit incomplete.

[00:02:08] Johnny Diggz: The data's very incomplete, yeah.

[00:02:09] Doug Berger: But- But we have enough data to be able to make certain assertions.

[00:02:15] Doug Berger: So, like, we generally know that water consumption and energy consumption are not as extreme as some people like to say it is. Don't get me wrong, it's still problematic, but there are these really interesting dualities that happen. So for example, LED light bulbs were created to reduce energy consumption, but kind of- Yeah

[00:02:43] Doug Berger: but kind of ironically- ... our energy consumption as a global civilization has increased exponentially as a result, because energy in that regard has become less expensive, and so we can just leave the lights on all day long. And also, of course, population growth. But we're not gonna go into, into those. I think what we should get into- Plus

[00:03:08] Johnny Diggz: you need really cool, like, colorful lighting in your bathroom now

[00:03:12] Doug Berger: And behind your, uh, your monitor, and behind you on-

[00:03:17] Doug Berger: like rail lights. Um, a- and I mean it, it's just- Yeah ... i- and to, you know, light a studio, right? Yeah, yeah. All of those things are, are critically important.

[00:03:27] Johnny Diggz: Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't, can't get rid of those use cases.

[00:03:29] Doug Berger: So what, what I kind of would love to dive into first is who is using gen AI? We're seeing a shitload of gen AI slop, especially on the socials.

[00:03:44] Johnny Diggz: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:44] Doug Berger: And is it okay?

[00:03:48] Johnny Diggz: Well, according to a lot of people I see on the socials, um, when I see... And, and it seems like almost every day I'm seeing a band, a small business, a restaurant, somebody, you know, a- usually a, a, a local, uh- Yeah ... somebody posting a flyer announcing a, a gig or something like that. An

[00:04:08] Doug Berger: event.

[00:04:09] Doug Berger: Yeah, yeah. Or I, I, I mean, the, the whole restaurant thing, y- can we glom onto that for a minute?

[00:04:12] Johnny Diggz: Sure. Yeah,

[00:04:13] Doug Berger: yeah. Because I, I feel like there's something substantive there. So when it comes to a small restaurant, we're talking 50 to 100 seats.

[00:04:27] Johnny Diggz: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:28] Doug Berger: Not big. W- w- what does the typical restaurant, um... Like, what do their profits look like?

[00:04:36] Doug Berger: A, a- and, and especially if they're not serving a full liquor bar, which of course, having a liquor license is incredibly expensive. But we're talking about, you know, a restaurant that's maybe able to do beer and wine or whatever. Um, that restaurant needs to get out its daily specials. So what are we talking about for margins?

[00:04:56] Doug Berger: What ki- What kind of, what kind of money do, do we think that these restaurants pull in?

[00:05:01] Johnny Diggz: It's funny that you ask because I actually ran some of these numbers, uh, using generative AI, by the way. Um, but, uh, so 2024, the National Restaurant Association, the, uh- The

[00:05:15] Doug Berger: NRA?

[00:05:16] Johnny Diggz: You know- ... they might, they might actually, uh, na- nationally...

[00:05:19] Johnny Diggz: Yeah, it is the NRA. Um, they, full service restaurants- Not

[00:05:25] Doug Berger: that NRA.

[00:05:27] Johnny Diggz: Ha- for, they did a survey. Uh, the 2.8% median pre-tax profit margin.

[00:05:35] Doug Berger: Two- 2.8%- Two- ... pre-tax profit margin?

[00:05:38] Johnny Diggz: Yes. So-

[00:05:39] Doug Berger: Two... So wait, hold on a second. Before taxes, their profits are less than 3%?

[00:05:47] Johnny Diggz: Yeah. So if a, if it, if you do the math, a company, a restaurant that's doing a million dollars in sales, they're making $28,000 a year in profit.

[00:06:01] Doug Berger: No, pre-tax profit Pre-ta,

[00:06:02] Johnny Diggz: pre-tax profit, right.

[00:06:03] Doug Berger: So after taxes, we're talking 20,000?

[00:06:07] Johnny Diggz: Yeah, yeah. So where's your- That's- ... marketing budget?

[00:06:10] Doug Berger: So, well it- Well it, well let's talk about this, right? So that restaurant needs to get people to come through the door. Yeah. So how do they tell people? So the most cost-effective way is through social media, because I can post something on Instagram, Facebook, and, uh, and, and all the other social media platforms, TikTok, you name it.

[00:06:31] Johnny Diggz: Sure.

[00:06:32] Doug Berger: And, uh-

[00:06:32] Johnny Diggz: And, and typ- and, and a lot of restaurants are, encourage their patrons to follow that for that particular reason, right?

[00:06:38] Doug Berger: Right, right. It, and so, so I need to basically tell my people that are following me on the daily that this is my daily special. And so-

[00:06:51] Johnny Diggz: And, and which you might have only determined within the last six hours because your chef told you what the daily special is.

[00:06:58] Doug Berger: Right. A- and so you basically have less than an hour to cobble together some sort of daily special something. So you're gonna do that. You're go- you're gonna, you're gonna create that in, in some Microsoft product- Sure ... or, or, or worse, Canva. No, I'm kidding. Sure. Um, or, or, or it, what we're, what we're seeing a lot of is using something like ChatGPT to generate these AI slop flyers.

[00:07:27] Johnny Diggz: Yep.

[00:07:27] Doug Berger: Um-

[00:07:28] Johnny Diggz: That don't look great.

[00:07:29] Doug Berger: No, but I mean, you're, you're telling me that that restaurant, at the end of the day- ... is making $20,000.

[00:07:38] Johnny Diggz: Yeah.

[00:07:39] Doug Berger: And so let's, let's presuppose that they have a very charitable graphic designer that is their nextdoor neighbor.

[00:07:50] Johnny Diggz: Yeah,

[00:07:50] Doug Berger: yeah. And, and they're like, "Hey, I'll-"

[00:07:52] Johnny Diggz: Or will design for food.

[00:07:53] Doug Berger: Yeah. Yeah. It, it, it, and so you're talking at least $50 per flyer, right, on the very, very low end. That's,

[00:08:00] Johnny Diggz: that's someone... Yeah, that's- It's- ... that's a, that's a very- It- That's a friend rate.

[00:08:03] Doug Berger: That's, that's a charity rate, right? Yeah, yeah. And so that's $250 a week.

[00:08:10] Johnny Diggz: Yeah.

[00:08:10] Doug Berger: And then if you multiply that times four, that's $1,000 a month.

[00:08:15] Doug Berger: So you're telling me if they were to get a charitable graphic designer to do their daily special graphics- Mm ... that they're going to be making less than $10,000?

[00:08:26] Johnny Diggz: Yeah. Well, I mean, but they use- In profit ... but, and th- and, and what we're seeing is that, um, the, the anti-AI coalition, uh, will gang up on them on social media- Mm

[00:08:40] Johnny Diggz: and down vote them or write them bad reviews or tell other people not to patronize their restaurant- Right ... because they dared-

[00:08:49] Doug Berger: Which is insanity- ... because this is a local, hyper-local small business. It

[00:08:52] Johnny Diggz: doesn't make any sense.

[00:08:53] Doug Berger: And, uh, it- let's, let's also be real. Those people were never gonna patronize that business to begin with.

[00:08:58] Johnny Diggz: Probably not.

[00:08:59] Doug Berger: Yeah. And, and so, it, it-

[00:09:01] Johnny Diggz: They're just looking for something to, I don't, generate c- uh, I don't know. I don't know what's-

[00:09:05] Doug Berger: It... Well, what it's doing is generating hypocrisy- Yeah ... because those people are posting it on social media.

[00:09:12] Johnny Diggz: Right.

[00:09:12] Doug Berger: And so when they're posting, no doubt they're getting auto corrected.

[00:09:17] Doug Berger: So as they're typing, that's going up into the cloud, and the cloud means data center, right?

[00:09:24] Johnny Diggz: Data centers run the cloud. Data centers run everything.

[00:09:27] Doug Berger: Data centers are

[00:09:28] Johnny Diggz: the cloud. Da- data, data centers run Amazon, data centers run Meta, they run s- YouTube, they run Net- Net- Netflix. They, that... Everything... AI didn't invent data centers, first of all, and that's, I think, one of the myths that we're, that we're busting is that the data centers have been...

[00:09:47] Johnny Diggz: That, that's part of civilization at this point.

[00:09:50] Doug Berger: It... Well, and, and let's talk about data center usage, shall we?

[00:09:53] Johnny Diggz: Sure.

[00:09:54] Doug Berger: So when it comes to gen AI and energy and water consumption, because those are the t- two key things that- Yeah ... we're all kind of missing out. When you say

[00:10:07] Johnny Diggz: energy, like really electricity.

[00:10:09] Doug Berger: Electricity, yes. Yeah,

[00:10:09] Johnny Diggz: yeah.

[00:10:10] Doug Berger: Yeah. Um, e- e- electricity and water-

[00:10:12] Johnny Diggz: Mm-hmm ...

[00:10:12] Doug Berger: uh, are, are really the, the two big issues, and, you know, it, it's obviously an issue to us. We are very much stewards of the environment. Um, we, we love going to national parks, and we love, uh, supporting various entities that also, uh, promote environmental causes.

[00:10:34] Doug Berger: I'm not gonna make this political, so- Sure ... uh, when it comes to energy consumption- What percentage, because th- this is something I know you know.

[00:10:47] Johnny Diggz: Oh,

[00:10:47] Doug Berger: yeah. Um, what percentage of electricity consumption in data centers is gen AI responsible for utilizing? Like, are we talking f- 80%, 20%, somewhere in between?

[00:11:08] Johnny Diggz: Um, so I don't have data on, uh, a, uh, what percentage of a data center is gen AI, but I do know that there's actual data from 2024 that s- that, uh, estimated global data center electricity consumption to be 1.5% of, of all energy used in 2024, all, all electricity.

[00:11:32] Johnny Diggz: Right. Um-

[00:11:33] Doug Berger: It's a lot.

[00:11:35] Johnny Diggz: Yeah, yeah, and it's mo- and it's going up, 3% in 2025. They're- Yeah,

[00:11:39] Doug Berger: but what, what percentage of that is gen AI?

[00:11:42] Johnny Diggz: Uh-

[00:11:42] Doug Berger: I mean, wait, so hold on. Let- let's, let's rewind a little bit. Yeah. So you're telling me the global energy usage is less than 5% for data centers?

[00:11:51] Johnny Diggz: It's estimated at, in this year to be less than 2%.

[00:11:54] Doug Berger: Less than 2%?

[00:11:56] Johnny Diggz: Yeah.

[00:11:56] Doug Berger: Less than 2% for energy consumption by data centers?

[00:11:59] Johnny Diggz: Right, and, and- So- ... AI-

[00:12:01] Doug Berger: And is

[00:12:01] Johnny Diggz: it- ... is a percentage of each data center.

[00:12:04] Doug Berger: And what are we talking, like 80, 90%?

[00:12:06] Johnny Diggz: I mean, it, those numbers don't exist yet. There's no, there's no, uh, there, there's no hard numbers that are-

[00:12:14] Doug Berger: So let, let me, let me kind of- Mm-hmm

[00:12:17] Doug Berger: show my hand a little bit. So we know that data centers are responsible for all software as a service- Sure ... products.

[00:12:29] Johnny Diggz: And that includes, I mean, these days, all of Adobe products, all Microsoft products-

[00:12:34] Doug Berger: And Canva ...

[00:12:34] Johnny Diggz: all, Canva is, is software as a service, Salesforce, all, all CRMs, all your, uh, health servi- you know, uh, hospitals- Yeah

[00:12:44] Johnny Diggz: all of that stuff is done in the cloud.

[00:12:46] Doug Berger: And,

[00:12:46] Johnny Diggz: and- Net- Netflix.

[00:12:47] Doug Berger: It, so it, so that, yeah, streaming video-

[00:12:50] Johnny Diggz: Yeah ...

[00:12:50] Doug Berger: is probably monstrous.

[00:12:53] Johnny Diggz: Oh, it's probably the biggest percentage, yeah.

[00:12:55] Doug Berger: A- and, and so- I think that there, there are data points that we do know that- Sure ... basically when you're looking at the overall consumption of energy, that, you know, you're looking at less than 1%.

[00:13:11] Johnny Diggz: Le- less than 1%. That, that, that's the, that's the-

[00:13:13] Doug Berger: Attributed to gen AI.

[00:13:14] Johnny Diggz: Sure. Yeah, yeah.

[00:13:15] Doug Berger: And, and-

[00:13:16] Johnny Diggz: And not all of that is generating pictures by small businesses. No, it- So Anthropic just actually released some data of their... They didn't release their, uh, their, their electricity usage, but they, they've released their revenue numbers, and the vast majority of their revenue comes from companies, big companies, that are spending 100,000 or more, and the, the top percentage are people who spend more than $10 million a year on-

[00:13:45] Doug Berger: So not restaurants with a $20,000 net margin.

[00:13:49] Johnny Diggz: No. No. No,

[00:13:50] Doug Berger: no. So all right. Um, uh, uh, so when it comes to energy consumption, though, where is the chief energy consumption when it comes to gen AI?

[00:14:03] Johnny Diggz: So- When you're generating one, uh, AI flyer, the estimate right now is 2.9 watt hours, uh, of energy. Now, if you compare that-

[00:14:13] Doug Berger: Watt hours or kilowatt hours?

[00:14:15] Johnny Diggz: Just watt hours.

[00:14:16] Doug Berger: Oh, okay.

[00:14:16] Johnny Diggz: Just... Yeah, so if you can compare that to, like, a 10 watt LED bulb, which uses 10 watts in an hour-

[00:14:23] Doug Berger: Yeah ...

[00:14:23] Johnny Diggz: um, you could generate three images for the equivalent of putting a 10 watt LED bulb on for an hour.

[00:14:32] Doug Berger: Right.

[00:14:33] Johnny Diggz: Um, but that's the tiny portion of this energy, of the electricity and water consumption.

[00:14:39] Johnny Diggz: Mm-hmm. The real part that g- that it- that everybody is concerned about and what causes all the hubbub is the training of these models, and that is a tremendous amount of energy, and, and globally is the fastest growing segment of energy consumption. There is a legitimate concern there about how fast that is growing, and there's some argument to be, be said that we should, we should definitely be concerned.

[00:15:09] Doug Berger: So, but, it, you know, it, part of it also has to do with energy efficiency, right? Sure. So you mentioned LED bulbs. We know that LED bulbs came about basically because incandescent bulbs were not only a fire hazard, but it consumed massive amount of, of energy. You're talking about- Yeah ... this 10 watt LED bulb- Yeah

[00:15:29] Doug Berger: which is the equivalent of a 90 watt, i- and potentially- In brightness, yeah ... 120 watt, uh, incandescent bulb in brightness, exactly.

[00:15:38] Johnny Diggz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:15:38] Doug Berger: Uh, but-

[00:15:39] Johnny Diggz: And less heat and yeah,

[00:15:40] Doug Berger: yeah. Yeah, un- uh, unfortunately the paradigm that, that it created was that we actually use more energy now, um, because- ... because it, it's just become more cost ef- efficient.

[00:15:51] Doug Berger: Right. Um, a- and then there's the water consumption part, and I, and I'm all about the hypocrisy on this, meaning that I wanna bust this myth about water consumption. So we have these- trolls that are going after small businesses, independent musicians for using these AI slop-generated, uh, y- flyers that, you know, it, that's what's affordable.

[00:16:20] Doug Berger: And, and really the only difference here is they're using this because it's easier than using Canva, which of course is free, um, and is certainly a better tool today than it was a long time ago. Um, b- not really an industry standard for designers, although some designers might argue the point. I'm not getting into that debate.

[00:16:39] Doug Berger: The issue, the, the debate that I'm getting into is water consumption. So we know that electricity is a big u- a, a, a big- Big factor ... factor. Um, but of course we talk about how you just leave the light on in your house. One, one light bulb- Yeah ... you leave on in your house. And that's more consumption- Yeah ... e- energy consumption in a day than a restaurant that tries to make five permutations of a single, uh, daily specials flyer.

[00:17:05] Johnny Diggz: Yeah. I mean, talk about- Cool ... the energy required to propel your car, fill up your gas tank, or like, the, you know- Can we talk

[00:17:11] Doug Berger: about water though?

[00:17:12] Johnny Diggz: Wash your car- wash your car.

[00:17:14] Doug Berger: Well, I mean, I, I'm terrible about that.

[00:17:17] Johnny Diggz: Yeah.

[00:17:17] Doug Berger: But what I'm not terrible about is washing my hands after I go to the bathroom.

[00:17:22] Johnny Diggz: Yeah.

[00:17:22] Doug Berger: And-

[00:17:22] Johnny Diggz: Or washing your clothes.

[00:17:24] Doug Berger: That's true too.

[00:17:25] Johnny Diggz: Yeah. Uh- Or washing your body.

[00:17:27] Doug Berger: E- e- exactly. A- and so, you know, I- I- I wash my hands every time I go to the restroom. Yeah. How, how much water am I using to wash my hands i- when I do the ABCs, right? Mm-hmm. That's 26 seconds of, of water flow. How much water is that versus how much water is used to make 10 flyers?

[00:17:49] Johnny Diggz: Maybe you should troll the trolls by AI generating a picture of you washing your hands.

[00:17:57] Doug Berger: So, so, y- you know, a- at, at the end of the day, I think it's pretty safe to say that people are, uh, uh, uh, it's kind of just misguided outrage, right? Yeah. It's, it's this very strange hill that they're on when there is a significant, if, hi- amount of hypocrisy involved.

[00:18:17] Johnny Diggz: The, the, the biggest- disproportionate thing.

[00:18:21] Johnny Diggz: I mean, I, I, I really wish that these, these people, it, it's easy to see a flyer and feel whatever, you know, outrage that you're feeling and type something or put a frowny face on their post or go to the comment section, uh, or, or give them a bad review because they, they dared use an, uh, some sort of generative AI to, to promote their business.

[00:18:45] Doug Berger: Right.

[00:18:45] Johnny Diggz: Um, which is just completely misdirected outrage. It- if you're going to be, if you're gonna be angry, point your outrage at the actual billionaire companies that are building out these data centers and, and, and taking up all the- all, all of that space. It's not the, it's not the usage of... You know, I, I, I, uh, the...

[00:19:09] Johnny Diggz: When you, when you fill your tank up with gas, right? It's-

[00:19:13] Doug Berger: I'm feeling attacked, but go ahead.

[00:19:14] Johnny Diggz: Yeah, when you fill... Yeah, I've got a electric car. Um, but when you fill, when you- It's at least hybrid ... fill up your t- It is a hybrid. Um, but the, the, the amount of energy it takes to, you know, fill up your, your tank, that's not where the majority of that cost comes from.

[00:19:32] Johnny Diggz: Oh, no. Right? Yeah. So y- you know, there, th- they had to pull that oil out of the ground. They had to ship the raw oil somewhere. They had to refine that oil. They had to ship it, you know, to the individual stations, and then be, you know- And

[00:19:44] Doug Berger: you're skipping steps. And we know-

[00:19:46] Johnny Diggz: Um, yeah ...

[00:19:47] Doug Berger: that, that, that people attack the gas stations when it's not the gas station-

[00:19:51] Doug Berger: franchisees, right?

[00:19:52] Johnny Diggz: Right, right. He didn't, he didn't raise the prices. He's just kind of passing along... I mean, some of them do, but some of them are bad guys. But, you know, for the va- mass- vast majority, he's, he is barely making his margin as well, everybody along the way. Yeah. And so to, to, to direct your outrage at the, you know, hate the game, not the player, I guess is, is

[00:20:14] Doug Berger: You know, I, I, I...

[00:20:16] Doug Berger: But that's a different argument. I don't wanna get into that one, uh, 'cause then all of a sudden I'm like, do you hate the artist but not the art? Um, where, where does that work? Well,

[00:20:24] Johnny Diggz: I mean, but that, but that also is a- another factor of this that I was thinking about, which is, you know, some people will look at a piece of art and can appreciate that piece of art for what it is, just that piece of art.

[00:20:38] Johnny Diggz: They don't know who made it. They don't necessarily care, care how it was made or what, you know, what, what the artist went through to create that piece. Some people do care about that part, but is it, is it better that some artist, let's say a painter, you know, stretched his own canvas, uh, maybe mixed his own paints, and made a piece of art?

[00:21:04] Johnny Diggz: Does that make that piece of art- inherently better than someone who bought their paint at Walmart?

[00:21:11] Doug Berger: So you're, you're basically talking versus craft, right? So if you're mixing your paint, if you're stretching your canvas, if you're, you're foraging, uh, for, for, for pigments, that's craft, right? Yeah. The, the ultimate expression is art.

[00:21:29] Doug Berger: So I would say that, you know, some people love that raw component.

[00:21:34] Johnny Diggz: Sure.

[00:21:34] Doug Berger: But that's-

[00:21:35] Johnny Diggz: Subjective.

[00:21:36] Doug Berger: Y- y- you know, it, it, it's not a defining point of what art is. Sure. So even a photograph was once a controversial piece of art. Today, it's an accepted thing that we see in galleries. The same is beginning to happen with AI.

[00:21:52] Doug Berger: We know that MoMA has had AI art. Um, and, you know, people are like, "It's not art if it's AI." Okay, that's fine. You don't have to believe that it's art. But if someone else puts it up in a gilded frame, perhaps you might be wrong. But the more important distinction here is what are the perceptions versus realities of creating through generative AI?

[00:22:23] Doug Berger: And at the end of the day, we know that the water consumption is not as excessive as flushing a toilet. We know that the electricity consumption is not nearly as much as watching a movie on Netflix or streaming anything on Hulu.

[00:22:44] Johnny Diggz: I

[00:22:44] Doug Berger: think- Also not a sponsor.

[00:22:47] Johnny Diggz: Well, and, and, you know, and I think that at, at the end of the day, um, there are, there are regulations that you could point your outrage to.

[00:22:58] Johnny Diggz: Um, there are utility companies that you can point your outrage to. There are giant multi-million dollar, uh, AI companies that you can point your outrage to. Don't point your outrage at a local business. Don't point your outrage at the guy pumping gas into his car.

[00:23:16] Doug Berger: Yeah. If you're gonna fucking complain about their flyers being AI, maybe step up and help.

[00:23:21] Johnny Diggz: Absolutely. All right. Well, I hope that you guys will stop it.

[00:23:31] Johnny Diggz: And on that note, I will see you next time

[00:23:34] Speaker 3: Thank you for tuning in to Brand of Brothers. Big thank you to our presenting sponsor, Remixed, the branding agency, along with production assistance from Johnny Diggz, Simon Jacobson, and me, Doug Berger. We can't forget music by PRO. Speaking of not forgetting, remember to do that like and subscribe thing, and find us at brandshowlive.com and follow us on the socials @brandshowlive.